The product support of Infor mainly in ERP LN 6.1 any release has detoriated to such an extent that their development team at Netherlands and Hyderababd - India, doesn't accepts any bug in the system and straight forward comment the same as a PRODUCT ENHANCEMENT. Do these people know what is PRODUCT ENHANCEMENT.

I have identified such bugs and listed them in ERP LN 6.1 which these guys telling as product enhancement. These guys just don't want to work. I don't what's there problem is, whether they don't understand the business process and business best practices needs or just don't want to work. This type of attitude had lead ERP LN 6.1 a untimely death in India, which was once a very strong clientbase for BaaN.

I admit that there may be mistakes while development but this guys should be open minded to accept this. Thus the product will become robust.

I think Infor should look into this instead of revamping its www.infor365.com every now and then.

When there will be no clientbase, then there will be no use of this www.infor365.com

I think the support of BAANBOARD is far-far better than that of Infor365. Here in BAANBOARD you can get quality solution or no solution not a piece of crap like "PRODUCT ENHANCEMENT".

Hi,

Since this is your second post with the same text I am wondering if you can give us an example of what you did report as an bug and Infor didn't wanted to fix.

In my opinion support has been worse before. I have to admit that it sometimes depends on who is handling your inquiry but you can always call your account manager to 'escalate' it.

I do have some experience with Oracle Apps too and they have their problems as well. They respond very quickly but before something is fixed it takes ages.

SAP support seems to be pretty good what I have heard.

Sparks

The difference between an enhancement request and a defect is whether or not the session is working as designed.

For example, let's say that when you create your database user, you think that baan should assign the DB user a random password instead of letting the sysadmin enter one. Local law may require it, security experts may say "that's absolutely required", and it may make absolute sense. However, that's not a DEFECT. The session was designed to allow you to enter the password. It is doing that and doing it well.

It's important to get fixed - and it will - changes like that are accepted, but they go into the next release.

You save the changes in functionality for major releases, you fix the bugs in the code in minor releases for the version you're on.

That's the standard SDLC, that's what the software industry has been using as it's basis for years and years. Look at any common software product, you don't see oracle releasing a new, better way, to handle datafiles in a point release.

Dave

Dave,

Thanks for the knowledge sharing on standard SDLC. For your information, I also belong to a very big software company which has multiple products under its profile. It has got some big companies to prove its satisfied clientbase and hence SDLC is not a new thing to me.

Check out how SAP handles its support. The question is these Infor guys cannot differentiate between Product Enhancement and Bugs. When the concept in a particular business subject matter is not good you cannot design the system. How can these guys claim a BUGGY system as a standard process????

The fact is that all these fucntionality are being developed by people who are just fresh from colleges and lacks business knowledge in Infor.

Just check out why Infor-ERP LN 6.1 met an untimely death in India which was once a very big marketplace of BaaN. The reason is Localization - Indian Statutory which Infor developed was not at all suitable and was hardly matching with the business process.

This was not in case of earlier BaaN Global Support. Till today the Localozation in BaaN IV is the best. Companies which is in BaaN IV is not taking risk for migrating to ERP LN because of localization. Those companies which have migrated or in the course of migrating either is repenting or thinking of other option though they standard product is good.

The question is though the product INFOR ERP LN 6.1 is very sound, but the people who supports it is below par. Infor requires some good quality and subject matter experts to be as Support AGent, not novices who cannot understand the difference between PRODUCT ENHANCEMENT and BUG.

Saikat

Hi Saikat,

The reason that changes in functionality, or design issues are considered an enhancement is that it will take serious time, thought, effort and QA to resolve the problem. unlike a bug, they can't locate a flaw in a chunk of code, fix that, unit test, regression test and then release a patch.

To redesign a process they have to do a macro/micro design, this involves going to SMEs for the particular area (for example indian localization they may need market research, or legal input) followed by extensive coding, unit test, regression test, integration test, etc.

If you're familiar with the SDLC then you should realize how developers work. You can only create a defect against a piece of code if the code isn't compliant with the requirements. If the requirements don't cover something, than that is a recognized problem - but it's not a bug. It's usually a Change Request or something similar. It requires the Business Analysts to get involved to help determine the solution.

My experience with Baan support is that if you can clearly articulate the problem, are able to reproduce it, give them the appropriate traces and an actual error is being generated that most support folk will log it as a defect and it will get resolved for your current release (eventually).

(Please note, I do not work for, or represent Infor)

Dave

Hi Dave

I fully understand the process you have mentioned and agree with you. My experience with BaaN Support is also good but the old one i.e. www.baan.support.com

There are multiple instances when you can see the error or defect in front of you in ERP LN 6.1 processes, even your support agent also admits that a glitch, but the product development guys back in Netherlands and Hyderabad-India just copy paste help information associated with it. They are just adament to accept any glitch or bug. Even that glitch is basiccaly missing one line in code, which I can understand happens when you develop such a big functionality.

For example you just check "Vendor Rating Functionality" in ERP LN 6.1 FP3. You can come up with the basic and glitch (BUGwhich this guys tells as PRODUCT EHANCEMENT

Saikat

So are you saying that the website is the issue? I'm having a bit of a difficulty following you. I thought we were discussing product defects in ERP LN.

If it's the website, then I really don't have a comment. I don't really care for infor365, but i also thought support.baan.com was bad.

If it's the product, and you have clear errors, abends, etc and the developers are coming back saying that it's an ER. then I'd raise it with your account manager.

In my experience the Account Managers work more for the customer than for Infor (it's been a few years for me. so that could have changed) but the account manager in the past have been able to turn around those types of issues. To the point of getting mean when they need to.

Dave

It seems that you are not my getting point.

The point is standard of product support during old days and after Infor took over BaaN the support detoriated like anything. Even during the SSA days it was better.

Do you know one real fact about Infor - Hyderabad, India ERP LN 6.1 development center??!!! Maximum resources are subcontracted from third party and they are freshers from colleges who god only knows whether have business knowledge.

One thing I like to mention in this forum that whenever you discuss with these guys they bring the reference of BaaN IV. Infor ERP LN 6.1 being a superior product than BaaN IV why these guys are comparing? If at all they are comparing why don't they develop the localization as same as that in BaaN IV. DOUBLE STANDARDS !!!!

It's not the website I am talking about. I don't care about the website if the issues, bugs, glitch or defect ( X whatever u call X) are solved.

Regarding Account manager.....hah!!! better not to discuss.

I am not using this forum to criticize Infor or there way of doing the things. Why Infor doesn't follow the SAP way of Product Support.

Ok, so we're discussing support, not the website. you must have been using the website to mark eras (baan, invensys, ssa, infor), which got me confused.

Having previously worked for Baan support I do have knowledge of the various support and development centers. I know quite a few very intelligent developers and analysts that came out of the Hyderabad R&D and support offices. I do agree that turnover there is a major issue, however that has been an issue for 10+ years and i don't see it getting better any time soon. Which is why I use the US based support staff at all times.

I don't think it's useful or fair to compare Infor support with SAP. Baan is just a product in the Infor portfolio, where SAPs entire business revolves around the SAP product. SAP is significantly more successful than Infor and had more resources to put into staffing and keeping good talent.

That being said, I don't think Infor's support is horrible, they do a good job with very little. As a matter of fact you can frequently get more from the Infor support than you could from an industry leader (they have more to lose than SAP does if you're unhappy, for example).

I'd love to see a conversation on here one of these days that isn't just support bashing. There are folks at Infor that read these boards, there's no reason why the baanboard community and the BWU community couldn't band together to help infor support it's customers better.

Baan has a lot of advantages, and not being an industry leader could put Infor/baan into a position to be more flexible and responsive to customers needs. But those discussions never happen at a community level, all you hear is "support sucks" and "be like SAP" which really doesn't help anyone.

Dave

Thanks, after all you agreed to my point. I also know some intelligent developers and analysts that came out of the Hyderabad R&D and support offices, but it's sad that they are no longer associated with Infor.

I am not comparing Infor with SAP. The discussion is the standard of product support in ERP LN 6.1

I also agree that BaaN as a product has got lot of advantages, in manufacturing and planning there is no product which can be comparable but SUPPORT??? .

I fully understand that Baan is just a product on Infor's portfolio. One thing I am not clear is that why Infor is not bench marking SAP Support regarding Baan. Why Infor is not aiming higher.

Baanboard is an independent site if I believe and what we are discussing is in open forum. It will be better if Infor people read this and try to amend there ways before there clientile erodes.. Its high time.....

Just tell me any new famous account win for Infor ERP LN 6.1 globally???

How do you like the new infor365.com website?

Awesome 6%
Good 22%
Not Sure 16%
Rather bad 35%
Awful 22%
Total votes: 69

This has descended into a bit of a rant, hasn't it? - I'm with Dave on this, yeah I worked for Baan support too. The best support centre was Grand Rapids (no I wasn't part of that team, but have spent some time there).

IVc4 is solid, that's why it still has the biggest footprint out there - V was promising (like all versions, it doesn't really work until they get to dot.three remember IVc2?)

Can't comment on LN. haven't worked with it.

The argument about enhancement or bug with Baan Support has been there as long as I can remember.

There are two key things to remember:

1) One man's meat is another man's poison. You may think that something should be changed - others think it is just fine the way it is.

2) Changes in design may impact much further than the immediate issue in question. Therefore they need to be very carefully considered in the context of the whole design.

That being said, I sympathise with the general point. There were things in Baan IV that were done in a particular way for reasons that we simply could not understand. We used to assume that Boeing asked for it that way...............

Boeing was the account that both made and destroyed Baan Company. Yes, it was exactly what Boeing asked for - we had guys onsite there writing code to their specs. What wasn't public knowledge is the fact that Boeing had copies of every single ERP package on the market at that time, all on "hot-standby" in case any of the vendors went down.

Hello,

Saikat, Infor is always open to discuss problems or frustrations with the product or the support on our products. The Infor ERP LN and Baan Product Management organisation is very willing to discuss your specific issues and concerns. And this not just for bigger companies, we do this for all our customers who want an open and constructive dialog with product management in order to bring the product further.

Infor is in a unique position in the ERP world as we provide the possibility for our customers to talk to Product Management directly. We're proud of that as we are proud of our product and our services.

It is really a pity that your concerns haven't been brought to our attention through the normal channels that are also open for you.

I hope you will contact me so we can discuss how we can improve our services to you and your company. We strongly believe we have excellent support and services and it's all about how we can use these to address your issues.

Frank Manders
Director Product Management

Note: statements made about other customers in these posts are for those people own responsibility.